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Dim The Lights: Is ChaCha Also Getting Paid For State Website Gig?

Ingov_chacha_2Put on your dancin' shoes. We're doing the ChaCha one more time before the evening is out.

From recent threads, we already know that Scott Jones' people-powered search engine recently received a $2 million grant from the 21st Century Research & Technology Fund. The company also formed a partnership with Indiana University in August of this year.

Beyond those two connections, it would appear that ChaCha controls the search function for the State of Indiana's home page and all of its subsidiary sites.


TDW found this tiny blurb (using Google!) regarding the switch in an update from the Indiana Office of Technology in July 2007:

" staff is nearing the very end of the conversion to the ChaCha search across With ChaCha, users get the power of a terrific search, plus the assistance of human assisted search. ChaCha and staff continue to explore additional ways to collaborate."

Another explanation is posted here:

"'I am especially proud that we are partnering with ChaCha. First and foremost, their unique approach to online search allows us to deliver our customers better service than ever before. That ChaCha is an Indiana company with such tremendous potential to take the entire web by storm is just icing on the cake,' [Chief Information Officer Gerry] Weaver notes. 'And, this is just the first step of this partnership, which we expect to develop into other improved service offerings via'"

The above-linked site further explains that "[n]o taxpayer funds will be used for this effort. is funded by visitors to the website who use the few fee-based services that are available."

That doesn't mean, however, that ChaCha is providing its service for free. Does anyone know how much, if anything, the company is being paid to handle traffic from

Inquiring minds would love a little bit more information.


July '07? where ya been Jen? Give it up.

yes, where have you been? and what's wrong with promoting an Indiana based company, Jen? Would you be writing such garbage if the state was using an out of state search engine? You'd be in your usual anti-job hysterics.

I would be extremely suspicious of anything that bunch does. Keep digging.

Calm down, friend.

When did it become wrong to ask questions about government?

Or is it just wrong because you don't think I should be asking the questions?

Or are you just a lonely troll with nothing better to do on a Tuesday night?

We've got a high-dollar fundraiser, $4 million in grants, a contract with IU and this relationship, which may or may not translate into more money for ChaCha. Lots of dots. If they're connected, they look kinda funny.

Forgive me, dearest, if I don't just accept your anonymous instruction to "give it up."

They're already blocking I wonder if Google and Yahoo are next.

Isn't the point of the 21 Fund to support development of new technologies?!? If Cha Cha is being contracted as the state's search engine, wouldn't that suggest (hopefully) that the technology is developed?!?

I think I speak for all of us when I say, "who the hell cares?". Talk about small issues. With all the resources the democratic party is spending trying to dig to the bottom of ChaCha-gate, you probably could have come up with a plan to reduce property taxes.

Ooh, this is a far more intriguing topic than 'Did Monroe Gray ever paid back the 2nd Homestead tax credit he has been claiming illegally.'

If you don't care how your tax dollars are spent, I don't know why, 8:37.

As far as property tax reform is concerned, I see a plethora of plans on the table right now, a couple of them authored by or with input from Democrats.

But maybe you read a different set of newspapers than I do each morning.

I know, I know. You don't want to talk about ChaCha.

That's your call. This is my blog. You no likey? You go away.

"The above-linked site further explains that "[n]o taxpayer funds will be used for this effort. is funded by visitors to the website who use the few fee-based services that are available."

So, in that same token, you could say that no taxpayer money is used to fund schools, it is money collected by the state from property user fees.

The State owns, when they make money off of a fee, it is taxpayer money. So yes, every bit of is taxpayer money. They try to get more and more creative to pretend that they are saving taxpayers money, but it's all smoke and mirrors.

There seems to be someone who really likes defending Chacha, I can't help wonder where their IP address is registered.....

Could it be Bob Compton again posting anonymously?

I'd like to know a few more things about this deal:

1) Is there a contract?

2) Between whom?

3) For how much?

4) Was it publicly bid?

5) Who else bid?

6) How are any fees paid?

Jen, the ITeam over at Channel 8 is looking for some new reporters. Your pathetic attempt at an investigation on a nonissue like this should be perfect. Give em a call. Maybe Corey can a get a real estate story out of this too. pathetic.

If you're going to reference reporters, learn how to spell their names.

I bet you'd think this was a story if the Guv was a Democrat.

Oh God, Mitch reached way way down into the bureaucracy to case workers to demonstrate that O'Bannon/Kernan were bad Governors. Then he proceeded to take office and nary a year went by before a couple of his top officials at the Cabinet level were chased out of Dodge.

Now, now. We all know it's inappropriate to hold the Guv's feet to the same fire he used to torch his predecessors.

Heather Bolejack, Dick Rhoad, Esther Schneider and the rest of the ethically challenged "new crew" simply don't exist.

Jen, my guess is that the people who are defending the Cha Cha deal are likely the same state employees in some higher position within the Gov's office, the Budget agency or Procurement division -- some or all of whom signed and authorized a likely no-bid contract for Cha Cha services. Typical Mitch appointees...

Ironically, if they'd just be as honest and open as they promised to be when they were campaigning, they wouldn't have to come to this site and anonymously defend their actions.

The easiest way to minimize criticism is to avoid doing things that look like they might be ethically questionable.

I guess that's where that old forgiveness or permission question comes from.

Now I know why the Cha Cha search keeps popping up on my list of favorites. And I thought INDOT was offering dance classes.

Maybe I'm missing something here ... but who needs ChaCha? I did several side by side searches using it and Google for identical searches. Nothing new or wonderful there. And assuming that the "guide" is nothing more than an underpaid student doing the same thing I can do - narrow the searches by typing in different queries - why don't I just do that? In other words, unless your a clueless octogenarian whose computer skills are negligible, Chacha's guide thing is just a high priced gimmick!

Yeah, way to be on top of this story--it's at least a year old.

This wouldn't be a story if the Daniels crew didn't make such a big deal over the $1 million fundraiser at Jones' house. And, if Jones didn't need the $ 4 million from the Technology Fund. Sorry new crew, when you ran, you derided contracts to donors. As they say, what comes around -- goes around!

Problem is the so-called new crew is older than the old crew now with all the antics, issues and blatent disregard for living up to campaign promises and aiming higher - to coin a phrase, looks like the ditch the new crew drove into is the ditch of all ditches. The out of state contract issue alone is the most obvious lie - what a sad, sad record.

The MO for the next 11 months: "Look over there - see that shiny trinket in the bushes. And, please don't ask questions or request information, everything is just fine because we say it is. And keep looking in the bushes - you will find it in a year or so. Trust us, we know what we are doing"

Geeks aren't too happy with the actual product, either:

Thanks Hoosierplew, reading the thread about posting your best Chacha guided search was a laugh a minute.

Yahoo and Google have both folded their human assisted search engines years ago finding it unprofitable and useless.

Now Scott Jones starts spinning a tale of a "new" idea and gets a few uninformed government employees to give him exclusive technology contracts and $2 million of 21st Century Fund money.

I can assure you that this is very lucrative for Scott if he is getting the same licencing fee that Google commands for a similarly sized website without the technologies security concerns.

Background Defunct Google Answers

Anonymous Nov 20, 2007 at 09:08 PM - TDW has assured me I will be "outed" every time I post anonymously - so my posts are always signed. The guaranteed outing is for senior citizens only, so don't worry, you can still hide.

A few observations on Cha Cha to help those of of you who have never started a high-tech company before - which by your comments and business analysis -- appears to be everyone on this blog:

1- MIT Professor Ed Robertson, with whom I studied in the early 1980's, did seminal research on 600 high tech start ups out of MIT. Conclusion: 80% of the companies succeeded with an idea NOT mentioned in the original business plan.

2- What that means is while all the early critics are carping, the entrepreneur who is actually in the game, fighting for success, is listening to his customers and adapting the idea, switching markets or re-positioning. Only 20% of high tech companies succeed as they originally believed they would.

3- This has been true in some of my biggest successes. Software Artistry's original business plan was to build A.I. tools for the PC. Unfortunately, there was no market, so we adapted - first to expert systems-based labor schedulering and ultimately to expert system-based help desk.

4- when I made the SA investment -- every VC in Boston and CA said I was crazy - A.I. related companies had all failed in the 1980's. But I believed in the entrepreneur, Don Brown, and in our combined ability to find the opportunity. I also felt that experts systems of the 1980's had been too early to market and not sufficiently focused on solving business problems.

5- I was criticized, doubted and second guessed for 6 years (this was Indiana after all) and Software Artistry was one day away from bankruptcy 9 separate times - so 9 times I had to convinve my partners to put in more money. We started at $250K and ultimately had $1.8M invested-- the largest high-tech start-up investment in Indiana to that point.

6- The lesson - our first idea didn't work, our second idea didn't work and financially we hung by a thread for years, but we found our market, built a great product, recruited a tremendous team of people, went public on the NASDAQ and were acquired by IBM for about $250M. My $1.8 investment returned over $30M.

Now, do I believe Cha Cha will succeed? I have no idea at this point, it is way, way too early to tell. I am very impresed with the 40,000 people they have recruitied to be guides. That is a big community of people who want to engage in search. Can that be monetized? I don't know yet, but it is a promising milestone.

What I do know is the 100 or so Hoosiers working at Cha Cha break their backs all day and lay awake every night thinking deeply about how to find the right mix of technology, value proposition, customers and revenue model.

How can I be sure - because I've been there many many times myself. Except I was there without Indiana's nattering nabobs of negativity which blogging and the Internet now so conveniently supply.

I admire the entire Cha Cha team, from Scott Jones to the 21 year-old college kid who has taken the chance to play the most difficult, challenging game of risk and hard work and stress in the entire world of business -- the Indiana high-tech start-up.

And for those of us who have been there ourselves, we know just how much they are to be applauded.

I wish them them only the best! Because if they are successful, it would mean another high-tech win in Indiana - and that is something great for all Hoosiers (present company excepted of course).

Quoting Bob: "...which by your comments and business analysis -- appears to be everyone on this blog".

Bob, you cracked me up. Best line of the day. Doesn't hurt that it's true as well.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Bob, sure a few have taken swipes at the technology of Cha Cha, and I don't disagree with your analysis...HOWEVER, I think you're confusing the general concerns raised by the blog regarding the award of significant public dollars plus possible public contracts timed in close proximity to major political fundraising for the guy handing out the contracts, with questions about Indiana's commitment to entrepreneurs. Big, big difference. I think everyone on this blog want to see jobs and the economy grow, plus even a few entrepreneurs get paid for their creations!

By the way, I'm sure some entrepreneur who started Blackwater thinks all is well with their operation, too.

Well..I may be indirectly to blame for Cha Cha or other high-tech Indiana entrepreneurs getting government, university or local corporate contracts.

I have vigorously complained to the current and three previous Governors of Indiana that Indiana entrepreneurs are NEVER given a fair shot winning business from local government, state universities or local, large corporations.

I have had 6 Indiana companies that were able to sell their products to governments, universities and large corporations in EVERY state EXCEPT Indiana.

So, I would be in Pfizer's or Merck's headquarters out east explaining why Lilly was not a customer - "aren't you in their backyard?" "do local Lilly execs know something about this start-up that we don't" -- those are very tough sales calls.

Moreover, the "hidden" price of locating a start-up in Indiana where local reference customers will not buy, adds about $100,000 per Beta customer - because of all the sales calls I had to make in BOS, NY or San Francisco to find early adopters - because they are not in Indiana.

Many of you may be unaware that it takes from 12-20 visits to persuade a potential customer to be the VERY first one.

If you are driving to Bloomington - that is a manageable cost. If you are flying 15-20 times to San Francisco - that is very expensive.

I finally concluded it is cheaper to invest in the start-ups that are already on the coasts than to start in IN and spend the first 2 years flying back and forth to the coasts to land the early customers.

Surprisingly the exact same product made by a start-up company in Boston WILL be purchased by Lilly, but not from an Indiana start-up.

After about a dozen years of this frustrating experience of no local Alpha or Beta customers, I finally was told the truth by a senior executive at Lilly, a senior state government official and a top university person.

Here is the reason IN entrepreneurs could not get local Alpha/Beta customers - those critical early customers who work with you to refine and improve the product and become important references for you when you start to sell globally:

"Bob, if we buy your product and it doesn't work well or your company fails - the IBJ will run bold headlines about Lilly's, IU's or State Government's blunder and imply that we gave the contract to you because of political or other influence. That is WAY too much career risk for any one to take to help you get started here in Indiana."

They went on explain - "If we buy a lesser quality product from a Boston company and it fails - the IBJ (and now TDW) will never know and never say a word."

My retort was - "if that is the case, then what is THE compelling reason for me to start my high-tech, high-wage, high-growth company in Indiana rather than Boston?"

Can you guess the answer I got in all three instances...? There is a prize for the one who gets it right.

Dear little c

Two observations - when you say "I think everyone on this blog want to see jobs and the economy grow, plus even a few entrepreneurs get paid for their creations!"

Let's hope not too many entrepreneurs get paid - maybe 1 or 2 would be OK, I guess, but NO MORE.

I have found very few Hoosiers who actually understand how jobs are created in the economy or how growth occurs. I'm talking about the process, mechanisms, risks and challenges of creating value, jobs and wealth.

Do you know how it is done? Can you explain it to the readers here? I'm eager to know how you think it happens.

Second - your reference to Blackwater as part of this dialog - brilliant, insightful and clearly relevant. Nice job connecting those dots for us....

Wow, so a little criticism by the IBJ is all it takes to control the decision making process of some of the largest companies in Indiana? And now TDW is also in that "rarified" atmosphere of corporate decision makers? Whoa! Time for you to demand a serious raise Jen.....

Bob: Is your right arm broken yet? That
would be from patting yourself on the back
on here the last few days and telling us how brilliant
that you are. You must really have it tough!

If you want to try to feel like a mensch
just one day of the year, Bob you should
go and deliver some Thanksgiving food baskets
to 3 or 4 families from a list provided by your house
of worship.

Dear blank person,

I already delivered Thanksgiving dinner to low income African American families in Memphis. And I actually didn't need a list from anyone because these were families some of my black business partners and I are helping together - for both Thanksgiving and Christmas. We go to set up their Christmas trees in a week.

So, I got that covered, but thanks for the tip.

Just don't read my posts if they offend you. I always sign them, so they can be easily skipped and ignored.


Tell me about your own start-up experiences in Indiana. Have you found it easy to sell Beta product to government, universities or big companies?

I'm just going by my own experience - but any relevant experience by other Indiana entrepreneurs on this blog would be welcome.

Maybe my 20 years are the anomaly.

Happy T-giving, Bob.

ExactTarget, one of your investment companies, seems to have done quite well selling its product locally. That's one example.

Back to the NFL! And thinking up a new internet business!

Little c

Not Alpha or Beta customers, little c. Customers in Indiana bought ExactTarget products well after it was clear the company was going to be successful.

Same with raising VC money - only myself and family and friends would invest when ExactTarget was just the 4 founders in a one room office.

Do you think for some reason I'm trying to tell you something that is not true? I'm just sharing the truth of 20 years of start-up experience in Indiana.

Others' experiences - perhaps yours little c - may be vastly different. I'd like to hear them.

Can anyone on this blog tell about their own start-up experiences in Indiana? I already know my experiences, little c, probably in greater depth than you.

Let other entrepreneurs speak up and share their experiences and we can contrast and compare facts.

Bob, why would you, after June 2003 when you made your first $ 100K donation to Daniels, realistically expect a Democratic Governor to listen to your views?

Secondly, if you want money, why not network with banker Murphy?

Bob: Can you please explain to me (Joe Public) the relevance of ChaCha when I log onto the state government's website looking for a very specific and simple request and get NOTHING remotely related to said request??? Below is my search and following that are the responses received (box was clicked to search only). You can wax poetic all day and night about how we don't understand the problems associated with artificial intelligence, acquiring venture capital funding, starting and growing high tech firms--blah, blah, blah. But when it's all said and done, all that is wanted and needed from the State of Indiana website is an answer to our questions. And not some disreputable looking websites ( which is registered to Edriver, Inc., San Diego, CA) Would this be a spoof site?? What if I entered personal information there thinking it was ACTUALLY the State of Indiana website. Come on.....

Search term: drivers license requirements

Driver License Permits
Online DMV Driver Permit Info. Free Resource For Anything DMV Related! – Found on Ads By Google

Need a Building Permit?
National Permit Expediting Services Offices in New York & Chicago – Found on Ads By Google

Chapter 11. Requirements for Motorboat Operators IC 14-15-11-1
... IC 14-15-11-9 License requirements Sec ... and (c), an individual may not operate a
motorboat on public waters unless the individual holds a valid driver's license. ...
Indiana Code 14-15-11
... IC 14-15-11-9 License requirements Sec ... and (c), an individual may not operate a
motorboat on public waters unless the individual holds a valid driver's license. ...

... of mind. Nevada has strict vehicle registration requirements and even stricter
driver's license requirements. Nevada law requires ...

The Immigration and Naturalization Service estimated that there ...
... National Hispanic/Latino organizations specifically opposed the imposition of
additional federal immigrant driver's license requirements on the states. ...

Dear blank person

First, after 16 years of talking to Bayh, O'Bannon and Kernan and their administrations - I have no illusions that an Indiana Democratic would listen to anything I say.

However, outside of Indiana, I refuse to believe that all Democrats weigh every idea by campaign contributions, rather than by merit.

I know it is not true of Senator Obama. I told Barack outright that I had been a life long Republican, but I wanted to know his views on global education standards and on supporting America's entrepreneurs. He gave me his thoughts and then he did something surprising - he asked me for my own experiences and my thoughts.

Like me he has traveled widely, so we talked about my business and film making experiences in India, China, Vietnam, Cambodia and Brazil - and he asked intelligent questions and listened closely to my ideas on how competition and education in those countries will affect America's economic future.

He is smart, passionate, has integrity, cares about America and will listen to good ideas - even if they come from a former Republican (I consider myself Independent now).

I have not found this to be the case in the Bush administration.

Senator Obama really impresses me. If you haven't decided on a Presidential candidate, I encourage you to consider Senator Barack Obama. [BTW Jen, he loved my film last Friday night]

Third, I don't know Murphy - and I don't want anyone's money. Although if Jen wants to learn first hand how jobs are "created", I'm willing to let her invest side-by-side with me in a rapidly growing high-tech Indiana company. But only if she wants to learn.

Finally, blank person, we should not really be talking about "creating jobs" - that is actually a common misperception among the public. Entrepreneurs really don't create jobs -- they create new technologies and new products that meet people's needs.

In order to design, prototype, manufacture, sell and service those products, entrepreneurs hire talented people to join their companies.

So a job is not the objective - the objective is serving customers - jobs are a wonderful side benefit of the entrepreneurs' hard work and creativity. Ergo, what helps the Indiana entrepreneur to succeed, by happy coincidence helps create jobs for Hoosiers!

Dear blank person,

Yes - I can answer your Cha Cha question and I will, but I have to get to the office right now to go serve and satisfy some customers. The entrepreneurs work is never done!

I'll explain more later.


Ooh - isn't the entrepreneur impressed with himself? The bigger they are the harder they fall!!

Wow, Isn't Bob impressed with - wait, I know - Bob!!! Seriously, you need to get over your own self-importance. Have you considered where you'll be if all those customers your serving suddenly go away? You won't be the first to climb to the top of a mountain of your own making only to find out it was built on sand!

"Senator Obama really impresses me. If you haven't decided on a Presidential candidate, I encourage you to consider Senator Barack Obama. [BTW Jen, he loved my film last Friday night]"

Get over it. Candidates love everyone and everything. Talk about believing your own reviews! Candidates routinely devour food on the road that they'd never think about eating. They kiss slobbering babies and shake hands with people that in real life they would despise. I'd be more impressed with a candidate that would be honest and critical of my work than one who was kissing my ass!

Heh heh - spot on 8:50. Candidate - meet money! Money - meet candidate!

Money - "How do you like my apple pie?"

Candidate - "Best apple pie I've ever had. Have you considered making a donation to my campaign? Really. Sure is good apple pie."

The last two posts being concerned with the "evil" or less than honest motives of everyone else, except of course their own.

Bob Compton,

I respect your opinions and your dedication to growing and advancing Indiana companies.

That said, for an Indiana company to be successful it needs to be competitive and add value. Cha Cha simply doesn't work, is prone to serious security threats, and doesn't beat Google, Yahoo, or Ask in any category of search.

Compound these facts with political donations, favoritism, business media ownership, and state/university contracts that appear to have no management oversight.

Not a pretty picture, would you agree?

Dear Real World -

I agree Cha Cha should NOT have picked any Indiana institutions to be its early customers. That was asking for trouble with that decision.

I actually don't think Cha Cha should be an Indiana company at all - there is no compelling reason to be there - nothing about Indiana adds value to their business. Or am I missing something?

Real World, your start-up experience may differ, but I have never delivered a first generation product that worked perfectly. That is why I pick Alpha and Beta customers with great care - the early customers can be your best allies or your worst nightmare.

Cha Cha has chosen Indiana University and Indiana government as Beta customers - I think Webster's actually lists those as part of the definition of "worst nightmare".

Beta customers are VERY special people - very unique and very valuable - they should be the kind of people that LOVE innovation.

And more than just loving innovation they need to enjoy working with the entrepreneurial company to fix problems, suggest new ideas, create new value propositions and find better ways of solving problems. Good Beta customers are a joy to work with and a treasure to find.

If Scott had asked me - I could have told him - Hoosier institutions are NEVER good Alpha or Beta customers.

Government workers and university staffs are not innovative by nature - they want a tried and true product that works perfectly out of the starting gate - and if they don't get it - they will make the entrepreneurs' life miserable.

That's why it is best - albeit expensive - for Indiana entrepreneurs to find Alpha and Beta customers on the coasts - ideally Silicon Valley or Boston. Or better yet to start your company there.

In those cities, Beta customers actually relish trying new things, are delighted to find something that doesn't work and excited to share it with the company and see their idea implemented. Good Bate customers enjoy helping the company get better, not bashing it. It is a totally different mindset from Indiana.

So, in a sense I agree with you - Indiana government and universities were a terrible choice for Cha Cha - my guess is they regret it everyday now.

Dear blank person or other blank person - it is hard to keep up with all the blank persons on this blog -

I did the EXACT same search you did - I see what started your confusion. In Google, Yahoo and even Cha Cha there are what are known as Sponsored Links. These are links paid for by advertisers - you can identify these links by the color highlighting them - usually a beige or light yellow.

After the sponsored links is where Native Search begins. When I repeated your search on Cha Cha - Search term: drivers license requirements - I got this AFTER the Sponsored Links:

1- BMV: Digital Drivers License
... making them machine-readable; it sets requirements for proving ... are approximately
4.2 million licensed drivers and 728,298 ... of both a valid driver license and ID ...

2- Clicking on that link took me to:

3- From there I simply clicked on:
I want to get a New Driver's License.

And then I had the page with all of the requirements for Driver's Licenses.

So - 3 clicks on Cha Cha.

Now I did the same through Google Search Term: "Indiana drivers license requirements":

First I got the same sponsored ads - so as I explained earlier, you ignore these.

The first Native Link was:
Indiana Driver License Manual
Chapter 6 - Driver License Suspension, Revocation* Chapter 7 - Vehicle Titling and Registration*. Indiana Driver Manual in other languages ...

1- Clicking on that went to a dead page - it must have been an old archived page in Google.

2- So, clicking on the second Native Link:

Indiana Bureau of Motor Vehicles :: Driver License
Indiana applicants who are renewing or amending an Indiana driver license, permit, or ID card must surrender the license, permit, or ID card and verbally ...

3- Another dead archived page.

4- So, clicking on the third link:
[ More results from ]
Indiana Drivers License Requirements
To get your Indiana drivers license you must be 18 years old or 15 years old for a learners permit. Drivers Education Illinois Learners Permit Requirements ...

Ooops - that takes me to an insurance broker trying to sell IN car insurance.

5- So, clicking on the 4th Google link:
Indiana Drivers License & ID - Forms, Schools, & BMV Records - DMV.ORG
Indiana drivers license & ID card information - Find information on obtaining a Indiana driver's license or state ID card.

OH NO - that takes me to the site that Cha Cha identified as Paid Search and I was able to skip it in Cha Cha - but here that "spoof site" as you were concerned showed in Native Search

6- So, clicking on the 5th Google link: Ooops same posible spoof site

7- So, clicking on the 6th Google link:
Good grief another possible spoof site - or an legitimate insurance site but no answer to my question - Indiana Driver's License Requirements

8- my 8th link on Google - EUREKA - I finally found the page Cha Cha gave me on the second click. Let's see how many clicks did it take through Google - counting going back after each wrong click -

16 clicks on Google.

So, it would appear - replicating your EXACT search - Cha Cha was 5.33X MORE efficient.

Were you able to follow that, blank person?

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